Sunday, September 17, 2006

Radical xianity just as threatening today as radical Islam? I don't think so...at least not yet

Though radical Xianity is a threat to our freedom of speech, freedom to choose in certain aspects of our lives, their "mission" in today's world is to convert us and if we don't, they "pray for us" and let their god decide to send us to hell and eternal flames or whatever they wish for us non-believing heathens. When nutcases like David Koresh arise and have delusions about themselves being Jesus and hole up and arm themselves, our government steps in (though rather drastically...they didn't have to kill those people and could have waited till they got really, really hungry and come out on their own).

However, Islamic extremists want us dead if we don't convert to Islam. Plain and simple. Those who leave Islam are sentenced to death and suicide bombers help expedite the infidel (oftentimes large numbers of "infidels") to hell and they believe these suicide bombers for Allah are going to be rewarded wtih the great "bordello" in the sky for killing us.

Therefore, even though I don't really like siding with Xianity, there is a huge difference between radical islam and radical xianity. (at least for now - hopefully xian history won't repeat itself)

28 comments:

Roya said...

I absolutely agree. I am scared of xianity but Islam is much more bloody and far more aggressive. At least for now, Islam is the biggest threat to humanity.

Stardust said...

Hi Roya,

Islamic radicals are eager to blow themselves up, even when their "mission" goes wrong they still follow through in the name of Allah.

On the other hand, for the xian, killing oneself is a grave sin against their "creator".

vjack said...

Don't forget that the difference is that there is such a thing as Islamic theocracy. We don't have modern Christian theocracies yet. Give Robertson and Falwell the kind of power Muslim clerics have, and we'll see which is worse. My guess is that there would be no difference.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Better the debbil who won't do you, than the debbil who will, ey?
I'm getting sick of the whole lot of them, all those religious nutjobs.

CyberKitten said...

Certainly a few questions spring to mind:

Just how many *radical* muslims are we talking about here? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Millions?

What about the rest of the Muslim world?

Are 'they' as big a threat to Western Civilisation as some make them out to be? I mean, are we really that weak?

If they do constitute a real & present danger then what can we (or should we) do about it?

Stardust said...

Give Robertson and Falwell the kind of power Muslim clerics have, and we'll see which is worse. My guess is that there would be no difference.

Given the statements that Robertson and Falwell have spewed forth in the past, I have little doubt about that. Especially Robertson who has completely lost his marbles.

Robguy said...

How many Iraqis are dead because "god" told Bush to shock and awe them?
I think the 80% of Americans who think of themselves as Christian and wonder about those crazy Muslims aren't that different from the Muslims that sit in the Middle East wondering about the crazy Christians.
I almost think the radical Christians are more dangerous because they think they're normal.

Stardust said...

Are 'they' as big a threat to Western Civilisation as some make them out to be? I mean, are we really that weak?

Muslims are building up Islam in their mosques all over this country. If you read websites for their muslim schools and what they teach in their schools and mosques, this could all sneak up on us. We aren't weak, we just aren't paying that much attention because Muslims are not "evangelical" or door to door knocking.

Eoghan01 said...

Considering that radical xianity is a major underpinning of the current administration's policies, I would say that they are EQUALLY dangerous, but in very different ways. Fundamentalist Islam from the 'outsiders' position, fundamentalist xianity from the seat of the world's current superpower. Islamic terrorists cause grave short term damage, xian fundamentalists have realigned the course of American government away from secular principles of rights and toward religious dogmatism for the coming decades, if not for generations.

Stardust said...

Islamic terrorists cause grave short term damage, xian fundamentalists have realigned the course of American government away from secular principles of rights and toward religious dogmatism for the coming decades, if not for generations.

So far, it's been a fight but we have been able to keep the fundies at bay. They have suffered defeats on ID and school prayer, etc in recent years and months. We have to be ever vigilant and constantly aware of what xian fundies (and moderates too) are up to. We need to educate ourselves more about the muslim religion and what is being preached in their mosques. I have looked at some muslim school sites and like xians, they want to conquer the world for Allah. That is their "purpose." The Abrahamic religions are the most dangerous and threatening to humanity, but the muslim extremists are our immediate threat to human life right now. There is no negotiating with fundie muslims.

CyberKitten said...

stardust1954 said: the muslim extremists are our immediate threat to human life right now. There is no negotiating with fundie muslims.

So... If they are such a great danger, and we can't negotiate or reason with them... What can we do about it?

Put them in camps? Electronically tag them & monitor them for the rest of their lives? What do you propose that we should do about the threat to Western Civilisation?

What level of threat are we talking about here anyway?

Stardust said...

If they are such a great danger, and we can't negotiate or reason with them... What can we do about it?

cyberkitten - Good question of which I don't have an answer for. I am definitely not for rounding people up and putting them in camps. At the same time, we can't let extremists use mosques as a screen for terrorist activities. I am glad I am not in charge of trying to provide national security while avoiding violation of innocent people's freedoms at the same time. If we are attacked, then people are pissed because our government didn't protect us, if the government does something to try to prevent things from happening, then they are accused of invading people's privacy and freedoms. It seems to be a Catch-22...someone is going to be pissed off no matter what is done. No one has come up with any good answers and I think if we keep bombing the shit out of other countries it is only going to feed the hatred towards us.

What level of threat are we talking about here anyway?

In this country, I think the level of terrorist threat is high, and it doesn't have to be a muslim as we have found out with McVeigh. All someone has to do is get pissed off enough and we have something like the Oklahoma City bombing.

As for the religion of Islam, it is the same threat as Xianity...their "goal" is the same...to convert the world for Allah. It's what they teach their children, and they believe they will one day "conquer" the western world and everyone will be bowing to Mecca five times a day.
I am not saying they will succeed, but xians are not the only ones we have to keep track of. It's just a matter of time before muslims will begin to try to impose what they believe is the "true religion" into our government.

In the Chicagoland area, Muslim schools are already fighting to prevent fathers from attending girl basketball games where the muslim girl's teams play because it is against their religion to have men and women together for sports events. So far, they haven't won, but they are still pushing for it.
There have been other instances of them trying to make businesses and public facilities accomodate their religious beliefs...here are a few examples
Effort to accommodate Muslim women's modesty spurs debate

How much are we supposed to "accomodate" muslim beliefs when we throw a fit when schools even mention wanting to post the xian ten commandments?

wflooter480 said...

I, too, have thought about this stuff a lot, why do extremist organizations exist and how can we stop them and hell, can we even change their minds and ideology to that of acceptance, tolerance and moderation. I read an article in Time a few weeks ago about extremist Muslim here in America and how they are different than those that are in say, England and other European countries. (I'm going to be a putz and not put a link because frankly, I don't know how, I don't know where it is and nor do I care...)

So, here's the gist:

The difference is OUR tolerance towards them. And I think that there is a difference between radical Muslims here and overseas because while we do face the threat of terrorism in the US, we aren't necessarily being threatened (well, atleast not yet) by Muslims that are living here in America. They have the freedom to hate our government, our way of life, our freedoms, our capitalism, our "materialism", our Religion. But funny thing, THAT'S why they are here. Because they gain that freedom and "better" way of life by being here. They aren't nearly as isolated here as they are there. (According to the article.)

In America, we may have radical Islam, but rarely do we see terrorist cells here like you see in Brittain. We may see a lot more terrorist networking going on here if we continue to isolate them and treat them as terrorists before they are even so.

It is very difficult, this situation. I am very wary though of pre-emptive strikes on anyone. And if we start calling radical Muslims terrorist and treating them as such because they want to adhere to whatever crazy religious regulations, well, it just might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. They aren't planning to blow anything up though. I mean, they have crazy religious ideals, but that's their freedom to have, and EVERY religion wants to impose their crazy theology on everyone else.

Who is more of a threat? Radical xians or muslims? Maybe muslims at this point in time. But I can't help think about how many abortion clinics have been blown up by wack-a-doo xians and gay men being beaten to death and clergy sexually abusing children and all the financial scams by churches. The list could go on. Maybe the scope of Islamic terrorism seems really big and uncontrollable right now. But I think someone has got to have the courage and balls to stand up for TRUE freedom. You kill my father so I kill your children? It will never end. We think Islam is terror. They think Xianity terror. We keep throwing bombs at each other and the gap will just continue to widen and reap fear and revenge. Why does there have to be a "winner" for freedom to be realized anyways?untehz

BaconEating AtheistJew said...

Sam Harris has come out with an opinion on this. He is correct. And some of the commenters here are making Sam nervous.

stardust1954 said...

wflooter, some links for you to read

Joel Mowbray's Wall Street Journal column about the Bridgeview mosque in suburban Chicago that has been taken over by radical Islamists.

Among the leaders at the Bridgeview mosque are men who have condemned Western culture, praised Palestinian suicide bombers and encouraged members to view society in stark terms: Muslims against the world. Federal authorities for years have investigated some mosque officials for possible links to terrorism financing, but no criminal charges have been filed.

It would be nice if people could just do whatever floats their boat, but Xians and Muslims are not happy with that because that is not what their religion teaches. They must "convert the masses" for their gawds. If they could keep their religion to themselves, the world would be less warring.

Another link: Sam Harris on Islam

Stardust said...

Thanks for the link to Harris' article, Bacon. This quote is disturbing:

"A cult of death is forming in the Muslim world — for reasons that are perfectly explicable in terms of the Islamic doctrines of martyrdom and jihad. The truth is that we are not fighting a "war on terror." We are fighting a pestilential theology and a longing for paradise.

This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims. But we are absolutely at war with those who believe that death in defense of the faith is the highest possible good, that cartoonists should be killed for caricaturing the prophet and that any Muslim who loses his faith should be butchered for apostasy.

Unfortunately, such religious extremism is not as fringe a phenomenon as we might hope. Numerous studies have found that the most radicalized Muslims tend to have better-than-average educations and economic opportunities."


I have been doing a lot of research into the muslim religion, trying to understand it better. I still have a lot more to read and study, but so far, like xianity, I see repeatedly that muslims are taught to look to death for "life eternal."

Stardust said...

You kill my father so I kill your children? It will never end. We think Islam is terror. They think Xianity terror. We keep throwing bombs at each other and the gap will just continue to widen and reap fear and revenge.

wflooter - It does seem like it will never end and all this killing is senseless on both sides. But peace seems hopeless as long as religious extremism exists.

Fundies of Abrahamic religions all believe that the Apocalypse HAS to happen and will happen because gawd has proclaimed it. Muslims and Xians believe the end of times must happen and that it will happen very soon

And I wonder which side the moderates will take if they are forced to make a choice?

Stardust said...

I got an email from a penfriend in Germany today. Here is what she wrote about the recent violence concerning the Pope's comment:

What do you think about that what is happening after the visite of pope Benedikt XVI. in Germany? You will heard about all demonstrations in Moslemic world because of the pope´s quotation but believe in me: He had offend NOBODY! There was no matter to react in that bad way. The event was an invitation of the university in Regensburg, was not open for everybody and the quotation was totally taken out of the other context. Since today the real text is NOT translated in other languages and not many people know of the truth but I guess there are Moslemic agitators who like to instigate moslemic folks. In Somalia were an innocent nun and a man killed from two religious fanatics. Is that nonviolant? I cannot understand that behaviour. People don´t know what happened in reality but they make trouble!!!??? I think it is not a problem of all the other world but to find in intolerance and hate of many, many uneducated (stupid!?) humans. Christian religions made many mistakes in past too but why are other doing the same? Why can people think their religion were the only beatific belief in the world? By the way, I was so that upset and shocked of such undifferent actions and dismiss that violance in name of GOD! With their demonstrations and violance they had shown that the Islam is a very aggressive religion what don´t accept other opinions and tolerance.

Jason H. Bowden said...

robguy, vjack, ka, eog--

Show me the Buddhists strapping bombs to their kids for political goals, the Christians flying airplanes on suicide missions into skyscrapers, and the Jews chopping the heads off unbelievers in their societies. With Israel, this should be easy, given 16% of Israel's population is Muslim. Everyone is just as bad, so making your case should be a piece of cake.

Please, if you're going to say everyone is "just as bad," justify what you're saying with ***evidence***, or STFU.

Consider yourselves P'wned in advance.

cyber--

Not all Muslims are bad. But there are bad Muslims. Our goals should include effective terrorist surveillance here at home, prevention of WMDs from getting in the hands of tyrants, stopping ethnic cleansing where it occurs, and denial of santuaries of operations for terrorism. A totalitarian strain of Islam, Islamism (often called Islamofascism) is a global movement that has been gaining strength over the last few decades. Adherents want Islam to rule everything. As 911 indicates, we can no longer ignore it.

wflooter--

No one has the right to impose their beliefs upon free and virtuous people with the use of violence. In Iraq, 70% of the voting public voted in the last elections and the terrorists didn't get their way. The extremists wouldn't resort to all sorts of violence to attain their ends if they could get their way easily at the ballot box.

There is no difference between "winning" and winning, so I'm not certain what the scare quotes are supposed to indicate. If we didn't win WWII, Hirohito, Mussolini, and Hitler would have. Think carefully about what you just wrote and why free societies need to emerge victorious over fascist governments and organizations.

wflooter480 said...

I don't think we are disagreeing on the severity of Islamic extremism or any religious extremism. They kill people and are bad. Maybe my comment was a bit naive, idealistic, unrealistic, crazy liberal, whatever. And Sam Harris is probably right, about all of it~ and it may be one reason I'm a bit hesitant about being so hardline and militant with terrorists is because I see the Bush admin fucking it up and tearing into Iraq and it's getting worse.

And that was my point. Will our intolerance of Islamic extremism or any ther religious extremism going to help matters or just fuel the fire?

The war on terror isn't just about terror, it's about Islamic extremists right? And Sam Harris said it himself, those who are most adamant about fighting them are other religious extremists; Christian and Jew. And that's why I put winning in scare quotes. Because it seems that if Islam terrorists lose, another religion "wins". And being vehemently opposed to religion these days, I don't want to trade one extreme religion for another. And while Islam is very dangerous and terrifying at the moment, any of the other Abrahamic religions can easily become so and have in the past.

Maybe I'm wrong. I have a lot more reading to do. =)

Stardust said...

And being vehemently opposed to religion these days, I don't want to trade one extreme religion for another. And while Islam is very dangerous and terrifying at the moment, any of the other Abrahamic religions can easily become so and have in the past.

wflooter - we non believers are stuck in a world full of religious nutballs, aren't we?!

However, when our religious nutballs blow something up...our authorities arrest them or end up killing them. Their is some sort of justice. But history has proven to repeat itself over and over again so we can't say that our xian extremists will never start up the crusades again. Our own president invoked gawd when he stormed into Iraq...gawd told him to do it. That's kind of frightning if you ask me.

Religion is the most dangerous and dividing thing invented by humans.

CyberKitten said...

stardust1954 said: But history has proven to repeat itself over and over again so we can't say that our xian extremists will never start up the crusades again.

I think that's whats happening on the nightly news right now...... Or at least its what some people would *like* to see on the news.... Would big red crosses on our tanks be a good idea though...? They might mistake ambulances for armoured vehicles...

Krystalline Apostate said...

Jason:
Consider yourselves P'wned in advance.
Tough words for a toy robot.

Jason H. Bowden said...

ka--

Show me the Jews beheading the Muslims in Israel, where 16% of the population is Muslim. Everyone is just as bad, so please, I want to see your ***evidence*** so I can be an enlightened leftist like you.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Jason:
Show me the Jews beheading the Muslims in Israel, where 16% of the population is Muslim.
WTF? I'm against radical Islam. Buddhism has its bad eggs too. Like the Tamil organization. Or do you forget, that the dominionists in this country want to reinstitute biblical law, including stoning specific acts?
Everyone is just as bad, so please, I want to see your ***evidence*** so I can be an enlightened leftist like you.
Why don't you 'transform' into an elephant, & sell yourself to the zoo?
That way, you could afford to buy a clue.

Krystalline Apostate said...

Here's a good example:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1158918426442&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News
"PALU, Indonesia — Christian mobs torched cars, blockaded roads and looted Muslim-owned shops in violence touched off by Friday’s executions of three Roman Catholics convicted of instigating attacks on Muslims."

Stardust said...

Why don't you 'transform' into an elephant, & sell yourself to the zoo?

I just got back from a long weekend trip...this made me laugh so hard...sorry Jason ;)

Krystalline Apostate said...

Stardust:
Hey, I have a post up you may want to read -
http://biblioblography.blogspot.com/2006/09/life-from-above.html
I think it may be of interest to you.