Sunday, September 06, 2009

Another Duggar about to climb out of the clown car!

Arkansas family prepares for baby No. 19

Yes, I know this is getting old…and we knew it was going to happen since this woman obviously has a serious mental problem that makes her keep getting preggers and collecting children as if they were Cabbage Patch dolls! Seems this family is trying to create their own little town of Duggarville where everyone is related and everyone can inbreed, keeping out those evil-utionists and pro-choicers and they can all praise Jeebus together for blessing them with strong sperm, uteruses and vaginas.

What is really happening is this woman thrives on the attention she gets from being pregnant. And they can keep the sideshow going in order to keep interest in their spectacle via a television program where the entire family gets attention.

And what gets me is that these folks get tax exempt status for having their own self-created congregation that you and I pay for. And what does this do to health care costs? How many dependents does their private health care insurance allow? If not all kids are covered, how do they afford medical care for all these extra kids? And what if everyone did this? What about the impact on an already stressed natural environment?

The Duggars should have their heads examined, literally. This is not normal behavior. A normal wife, even a Christian one will say whoa hunny, I am not a baby making machine! And normal husbands will understand that they cannot put their wives through such physical stress which can be dangerous even under the best of care.


Mysterium Tremendum said...

Wow, that's crazy!

tina FCD said...

In my opinion, very selfish.

Stardust said...

Yep, very selfish...actually more like psychotic. She has a serious mental problem where she has to keep collecting babies the way that many people have collections of inanimate objects.

poodlesplace said...

Someone needs to sew her up at some point. I really feel bad for the other kids, you know they are the ones having to take care of all of these spawn.

We really need to tax churches and impose a head tax in this country.

Stardust said...

Hi Poodles, long time no hear!

I was just talking to someone about the tax exemption status for churches, the same fella I was writing about on your blog. He says that tax exemption isn't a handout. I said it is because when churches and other non-profit organizations don't pay taxes someone else has to pick up the slack and pay for them. And what we are paying for is very little to do with charity and benevolence, most of their money they take in goes for the comforts and enjoyment of the congregation. It's basically a business, a business that doesn't have to pay taxes because they believe in a magical sky daddy.

Kid Moe said...

You obviously are not an accountant. You don't seem to display the slightest understanding of not-for profit tax exemptions. Maybe you should stick to topics you know.

Stardust said...

Kid Moe, I notice on your blog that you use that line quite often, "stick to topics you know" or dismissing other opinions as "a three year old would know that", and other insults yet your explanations for things are quiet vague and ideas quite disconnected.

As a matter of fact I do know that non-profit organizations, especially churches are taking great advantage of the system. They get tax breaks for what is actually a country club for themselves, cushy salaries and benefits for their pastors. These churches sit on prime properties that would otherwise bring in millions of tax revenue. They may not give the appearance of making profits, but they certainly do make profits which they put right back into their pretty little or huge country clubs, church entertainment and trips and the like. Churches are businesses.

As for the Duggars, they should not be able to have a zillion kids and call their home a church in order to obtain tax exempt status. That is criminal and should not be allowed.

Stardust said...

And the post was also how insane it is to keep popping out numerous babies into an already overcrowded world with a strained environment...then is criminal to want to cop out on paying their fair share of taxes on top of it.

Kid Moe said...

Its quite evident that you are not simply an atheist. You are Anti-Religion, I don't know if a priest molested you when you were young or what. Or you could just be an angry person
As far as your lack of knowledge on not for profit orgs., tax exempt organizations are not for profit, they are not non-profit.
You say the property the churches are on could be used by tax paying companies, but in reality churches/mosques/synagogues are good for the community economically. Just like schools, religious institutions have a very positive affect on real estate values...even for atheist

As far as the Duggar's, getting tax exempt status is shady.

Stardust said...

Kid Moe, no traumatic events in my life. And people are free to believe what they want to believe. But the religious fundamentalists won't keep it to themselves and want the whole world to join in on their little fantasy.

As for being angry, you might perceive that because on the internet you really don't know people. If you look at my other blogs you will see that I have a wide range of interest and am generally and happy and easy-going person. This is just a blog where I can meet up with my pals to bitch and complain about religion, politics and also I throw in some astronomy posts for enjoyable diversion.

Bally's, Chuck E. Cheese, and other such businesses are there for the enjoyment of their customers -- just like churches. But because religion is attached to churches, they are tax exempt.

As for churches having a positive effect on the community, I beg to differ. Since several churches were built in the area recently, their parking lots have become havens for kids to hang out, there is so much traffic on the roads near these "businesses" and just because people go to church doesn't mean they care about speed limits and traffic safety. After church they tear out of there like bats out of movie-goers leaving the cinema in a rush to get home or to lunch or whatever.

Churches are a business. It is quite presumptuous of you to judge what I know and don't know based on a blog entry and comments.

You have made your point...and glad you at least agree that the Duggars are in the wrong. If they want all those babies, then pay for them dammit. I don't want to support their baby obsession.

Stardust said...

I should also point out that I was a Christian (Presbyterian and earlier Lutheran) and my husband was on the board of Trustees in several churches we belonged to so we saw where the money went. Most went to the pleasure of the members, very, very little given to charity or the community. Most are open only a few hours a week, at most for a million dollar plus property.

The Fundamentalist and Evangelicals want their cake and eat it too...they want the tax exempt status, but want to interject their religious beliefs into our secular government. If that is what they want, then they should be willing to give to Caesar what is owed to Caesar.

Kid Moe said...

Stardust you still don't seem to grasp the whole not for profit concept. Bally's and Chuck-E Cheese are for profit, but a community center or YMCA or not for profit. Both sets of businesses perform the same or similar tasks, so its not about what the companies do it purely has to do with the intent of the company and whether or not they perform a service to society. Religion plays only a small part in whether the the organizations get tax exempt status. So yes churches are businesses, not for profit business.
The argument you make against churches recieving tax exempt status could just as easily be made against Hospitals, schools, athletic leagues, community centers, business organizations, social clubs, fraternities and sororities, civic leagues, and about 12 more types of organizations that get tax exempt status that are not charities.

Also your complaints about churches is purely empirical, but it is a fact that a church or school in your neighborhood is good for your property value.

Stardust said...

Kid Moe, you don't seem to be able to grasp that a church is not like a YMCA even. You see YMCAs with pretty standard facilities, all quite similar. However, many of these churches are like palaces. The homes of pastors are often much better than my home. The cars they drive are better. So, therefore the churches are taking the money they make and spending it on more luxurious things for its pastors and customers whereas the YMCA manager pays taxes on his or her income and isn't like the CEO of a company. Church pastors incomes fluctuate with however much money the church brings in. They are more like Bally's and Chuck E Cheese than they are YMCA or any truly charitable organization. The churches provide fun and entertainment for their customers.

Community centers what provide food and shelter for the poor of the community are totally different than a church full of musical instruments, padded seat cushions, video projection screen equipment, etc.

Churches make profits...oftentimes big profits.

Stardust said...

As for churches helping out property values, well you are totally off-base on that one. Look around at all the poor communities that have two and three times more churches than our community. Churches and property value are totally unrelated.

Kid Moe said...

You do know what the C in YMCA is?

Stardust said...

Of course I do. Christian. However, the YMCA is not like a church. I don't see people buying fancy chairs and having fancy entertainment there and parties and such. I don't see mega YMCAs paid for with the profits of the little facility clique.

Kid Moe said...

You keep giving me examples that come from things that you think or feel. Again it is a fact, that just like schools, property values are better around churches, ask a realtor or just read any one of a million article you can find with 30 seconds of searching, here's one to get you started:

Stardust said...

I will have my husband come on later and give you exact examples. He served on the board of Trustees at several past churches and have seen where the money is and how it builds and what it is spent on. The comforts of the parishoners, not the community.

And I disagree. FACT...churches do not increase property values. Most people don't give two shits about churches in their neighborhoods. I have bought and sold several houses. I never give a shit if there were churches in the area even when I was a Xian. Churches do NOT increase property values. Now, I would agree that people think that "good" schools are good for property values.

Schools are a whole other issue since education is mandatory until the age of 16. Religion is no more mandatory than joining Bally's. It's a choice whether people want to join the club or now. SO schools cannot be even considered in this discussion.

Again, churches are in it for themselves. It's a big club for it's members. A teeny tiny portion goes to charity. The pastors' incomes rise as church "profits" rise. The church facility gets more amenities as the "profits" go up. Having mega churches, or small NOT raise property values in areas. You are totally wrong on that one.

Stardust said...

And in of the things we looked for when looking for a home...and all of our friends said the same NOT buy next to or even near a church because it will drive you crazy. We lived next to a Catholic Church in Chicago and it was the longest and crappiest 8 months of our lives living next to the church and their damned parking lot...trying to sell the house was a pain in the ass too because everyone who looked at the church said "ohh...ewww" and didn't buy. Finally sold to a Chicago cop who said he can keep the trouble under control.

Stardust said...

And then the "example" you give me is one you googled...LSD temples out in fucking UTAH? That are being built out in the middle of nowhere in towns where people sort of herd together for social gathering? That is not proof that churches impact property values in our large cities and suburbs around the country.

Kid Moe said...

where to start...
1.) I'm not going to go find everything for you as far as churches and real estate properties, but for starters that was an article from Arizona not Utah and here is another one, it takes about 2 seconds to find them, they are on the internet

2.) You obviously have an irrational hatred of religion. Every complaint you've had against churches can be said for every other tax exempt organization. You complained about the churches paying too much, well the CEO of the united way and the Red Cross each get over $500,000 a year.
You complained about buildings and houses for churches being extravagant. Well Universities are tax exempt and not only do they pay their presidents hundreds of thousand of dollars, but they also put visiting professors up in expensive homes.

Are there churches that, don't stick to their goals or mission, and instead use tax laws to their advantage, sure. But there are also tax exempt organizations from ALL areas that take advantage of the tax laws. should the loop holes and vague areas of the laws surrounding tax exempt orgs. be tightend up, sure. But for you to think that that only or mostly churches take advantage of the tax laws is laughable. The fact of the matter is that the VAST MAJORITY of religious organizations are not these crooked institutions that you describe.

Stardust said...

I'm not going to go find everything for you as far as churches and real estate properties, but for starters that was an article from Arizona not Utah

Do you even read the sources you are sending me? Yes, it is from an Arizona newspaper but about random communities throughout rural areas in Utah, Idaho, etc. It is not an official national realtor's survey. It's something you just pulled up randomly on the internet in an attempt to make what you say credible. It doesn't.

You obviously have an irrational hatred of religion. Every complaint you've had against churches can be said for every other tax exempt organization.

Please stop trying to tell me what I hate and don't hate. It's how the fundies operate when they are losing an argument. They say we hate their religion. Religion does cause most of the problems in the world, but that is a whole wide-ranging topic.

As for this being said for every other tax exempt organization, you are probably right...and gets me thinking tax all the sons of bitches. Churches and charitable organizations get away with a whole lot of crap that regular tax-paying citizens do not.

Have you ever sat on the board of Trustees at any church? If not, then you cannot know what really goes on behind the scenes. My husband and I know. Churches are businesses...most of them. They make a huge profit in many cases just like a business, but because the word "religion" is attached, they get away with it.

But for you to think that that only or mostly churches take advantage of the tax laws is laughable.

What is laughable is that you cannot see the truth that churches DO indeed take advantage of the tax laws. Pastors and church personnel dipping into funds to buy extra items for themselves, juggling annual reports to make it look like at least SOMETHING went to benevolence so the flock doesn't start bleating and go to another "country club"'s all marketing, advertising, and keeping the customers happy when they are members. A teeny tiny amount went goes to charity.

What does affect property values are location of the neighborhoods, quality of the public school system in those neighborhoods, and sadly but very real...racial make-up, access to public transportation, shopping needs, libraries, fire department district. But churches do not affect property value. People might ask a realtor what churches are in the area or surrounding areas, but it does not affect property values.

Find me a national study, then come back here and tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

Stardust said...

Been doing lots of searches, still haven't come up with anything that says churches increase property values.

Here is one link from an Indiana retailer that states pretty much what ever other article I have found from various states say:

"With respect to neighborhood variables and other factors
influenced by public choices, we believe that property prices
will correlate negatively with higher property tax rates, location
in Center Township, and neighborhood vacancy rates.
Conversely, we expect property prices to correlate positively
with neighborhood income, accessibility to employment, school
test scores (both ISTEP and SAT are important), and proximity to greenways. The percentage of residents in a neighborhood
who are African American is included as a control variable and
because of the importance of race in the housing market.
Because many similar studies have found that property values
are inversely correlated with the proportion of minority residents
in a neighborhood, we expect a negative sign on this
Problems of scale and level of aggregation complicate
analyses of the effects of public goods and neighborhood characteristics
on property values. For example, a neighborhood
vacancy rate depends on how the neighborhood is defined.
Measures of vacancy rates estimated for census block groups
typically show greater variation than measures for census tracts
because census tracts are larger and extreme differences tend
to be averaged out. Both definitions of neighborhood boundaries
differ from neighborhoods defined by local residents or
city planning officials.
To illustrate the importance of the problems of scale and
aggregation, our models include several variables that distinguish
between types of greenways, specifically greenway corridors
with multiuse trails for walking, running, cycling, and skating,
and greenway conservation corridors. Greenway conservation
corridors simply are place designations along rivers or
streams that recognize the importance of these sensitive environmental
areas. An important distinction between greenway
trail corridors and conservation corridors is that conservation
corridors do not have publicly accessible trails. With respect to
public choices, then, the greenway trail corridors reflect choices
to invest in infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists. The
conservation corridors reflect decisions to recognize natural
assets, but do not necessarily reflect choices to invest in infrastructure.
In each of our models, we define properties in a
greenway corridor as properties within one-half mile of the
central feature of the corridor. In greenway trail corridors, the
central feature is a trail. In conservation corridors, the central
feature typically is a river or creek."

Unfortunately, as I have stated in a previous comment, real estate values are higher in mostly white areas. While this may be changing at a very slow rate, sadly the minority areas have lower property values. Lily white areas have higher property values.

I am a white person so you cannot accuse me of hating white people as you have accused me of hating religious people.

So...location is #1, racial make-up # 2, accessibility to easy commuting, curb appeal, good schools with high standardized test score reports, and people care more about parks and trails and greenery than they care about churches. So far, in all the "googling" you recommend I do, I found nothing at all that say churches are a factor when talking about housing values.

Kid Moe said...

you obviously have a hatred for religion. I do not belong to a church, the closest I've ever come to belonging to a church was when I was a kid and the soccer team I played on was the local catholic school's team.
While I'm not religious, I don't have the vitriol for religion that you have. If you have gone from serving on the board of churches to hating them, you've obviously had something happen in your life where you can't look at the subject rationally. You've gone from not only being a believer in God, but you spent your time, money and effort to work for church, and now you think all churches and religions are evil and cause the world's problems.

Again, churches can't make a profit, you don't understand the concept of tax exempt status for companies. If a church gives $0 to charity (which many do) that does not affect its tax exempt status. The tax exempt status for a church would be similar to the tax exempt status for a rotary club or a local theater.

I do find it funny that you complain about churches wasting money and taking away potential tax, dollars as if giving them to the government is going to lead to the tax dollars being used in a prudent manner.

I'm done posting about this, because having an rational discussion with you on this subject is not possible. You should take a step back and re-examine why you hate religion, and should probably do something more productive with your time.

Stardust said...

Kid Moe, I should clarify myself about the profits and churches. My husband explained it this way...churches at the end of the year do not show profits because they are busy spending it away all year long, bonuses for the pastors and church employees, comforts and entertainment for the church members, parties (in disguise via the word "fellowship"). So in reality they do MAKE money, but make sure it's all gone before the end of the year, spending it all away on bullshit.

As for the money being misused by the government is a whole other issue separate from this one. Tax dollars go to village and city fire and police protection, streets maintenance, garbage pickup, etc. all of which the churches and other non-profit facilities receive just as regular taxpayers. Only they don't pay for it.

Stardust said...

Kid Moe...
The real reason you are leaving this discussion is not because I am irrational, it is because you have no evidence or sources to back up your claims. I provided sources that proved you wrong.

As for your insistence that I have a vitriol hatred of religion. I will admit that I hate much of what religion stands for when it supports bigotry, hate, divisiveness, racism, lying, corruption, and the list goes on and on. It's a free country and people can believe whatever they choose. But you can't convince me that churches make my property values soar...and we residents of my community are tired of carrying the weight of the tax burden while multi-million dollar church properties (social clubs) pay zippo.

As for doing something productive with my time, well not that I should have to justify my life to a stranger... wife, mother, teacher, graphic designer, photography buff, amateur artist, writer, scorer of academic achievement exams, helper of my elderly parents, etc. This blog takes me little time to maintain...and as for only thinking about religion...have you even checked out my other blogs? Probably not. Focusing on merely religion would be incredibly boring. Even this blog is so much more than that. You simply zeroed in one post and judged me...just like a fundie Xian.

Often when people tell others to do something productive with their lives they are really talking about themselves. Try looking in the mirror.