Friday, September 28, 2007

"This way...NO go this way!"

Can you imagine the lifetime struggle these poor turtles are going to have? And those who believe that animals and all living things are created by and taken care of by some supernatural being need to stop and consider this: If a god is making things this way on purpose, then he has to be like a psychotic mad scientist who is bored and instead of stopping war, hunger, famine, disease, etc...he chooses to play around with experiments in biology instead.

We rationalists, however, know that nature isn't perfect. Shit happens. (poor things)

Two-headed turtle goes on display in Pa.

NORRISTOWN, Pa. - A pet store has bought a
two-headed turtle from a collector and plans to keep it on display, the store manager said. The 2-month-old turtle, actually conjoined red-eared slider twins, fits on a silver dollar.

It has two heads sticking out from opposite ends of its shell, along with a pair of front feet on each side. But there is just one set of back feet and one tail.

The turtle is apparently healthy, and the species can live 15 to 20 years, said Jay Jacoby, manager of Big Al's Aquarium Supercenter in East Norriton. The turtle has not yet been named.

The store would not disclose how much it paid.

The same exotic-turtle collector sold another Big Al's store a conjoined-twin turtle about 20 years ago, Jacoby said. The man lives in Florida, but he declined to identify him.


vjack said...

You've just been tagged with an evolution meme blog-tag: Enjoy!

Stardust said...

vjack, interesting meme and unlike other memes, my response will have to be well thought-out and carefully put together. I will start working on it.

CyberKitten said...

LOTS of mutants about ATM - it's either the End Times or something to do with all the crap we pour in our oceans & rivers..... I wonder which it is [chuckle].

Tommy said...

C'mon Stardust. It is the sins of mankind that are responsible for that mutant turtle. Every time two people fornicate outside of the sanctity of a Christian marriage, a mutant two headed turtle is born.

Cole said...

This is a very good point that you have raised here Stardust.

I'm going to have to think about this one.

Cole said...


The reason God does this is because He displays His nature in what He creates.

This displays God's wrath. It's good because God is glorified through His wrath.

Stardust said...

cole, interesting answer you made up to explain this accident of nature, and to try to make it look like your god is in charge of things, or that he doesn't screw up, or that he has some reason to make a tiny, innocent creature suffer just to make a point to humans. Christians are quite good at making up answers as they go along. Every christian, if asked individually why their god would allow things like this to happen, or why he would do it purposely, each and every individual christian would be quite inventive in coming up with an answer according to their own thinking and imagination. In a group, christians are swayed by the leader of the group and then the group all nods and says, yes, we will accept that and memorize that answer and regurgitate it like robots but will get upset and flusterd when that answer is challenged. (Then you will have to go back and think and "pray" about it some more to think up more answers.)

According to your answer, god created humans with a free mind but then wishes to dick with them and destroy them when they utilize that free will...but making mutants, illness and deformities. Your god then is like an abusive parent...can make the babies, but when the babies do something he doesn't like (like think for themselves)...then he abuses them. That is really a sick way of living, to think that some overlord is going to strike innocent creatures in a supernatural and cruel temper tantrum.

Nice try...hope this is post is continuing to make you think and question the "bad god" mentality.

Cole said...

Stardust I didn't make that up it's in the Bible.

But I won't quote unless you want me too

Animals don't sin they just do what they were designed to do.

Nobody deserves to be created.

Stardust said...

you cherry picked from the bible. I can find passages to counter every point you try to make. If you know your bible, you will know. Also, I also know from talking to many people throughout my life, that people's interpretations of this ancient book varies, and people read it however they choose to read and interpret it, according to one's own needs, desires, influences, etc. That is why you all need so much Bible can never come to an agreement, and surely will never understand it. You are basing your beliefs on what someone in your own church is influencing you to interpret it as.

The Abrahamic religions are all negative in the way they instill unnecessary guilt, fear and feelings of victimization and persecution and unworthiness. You all pray for things that you have no control over and when prayers don't work, then you say it is god's will. Stop and think about that. It is pointless to pray then...because you can pray till the cows come home and what happens is going to happen because you are at the mercy of your all-wrathful, revengeful, sadistic, and merciless god. (who you believe imposes a torturous life on innocent creatures in fits of vindictivness).

It's way too bizarre if you really shake the cobwebs of superstition from your brain and try using reason and logic.

Cole said...


Animals aren't moral creatures.

God created them and He has the right to destrory them if He wants to.

He demonstrates His nature through what He creates. And part of that nature is His wrath.

I follow God out of love not fear.

Stardust said...

cole, and I deleted your last comment about god having a "wrathful grace" because you said that already, and you are just repeating yourself. A god that dicks with and abuses his creative powers because of his own lack of self-control is not worthy of worship...even if he did exist...

My stance is that there is no evidence to date for the existence of your god any more than there is for the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and vast number of other gods that people believe more evidence for these supernatural beings than there is for the existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Stardust said...

So, cole, you love beings that are dicks and like to cause suffering and who merely creates little innocent animals for his own sadistic entertainment? And you can still talk about morals in the same breath???

Sorry, but I cannot buy that line of bull. I was a christian for more than 30 years, and member of various denominations. It IS based on fear...believe or suffer eternally. That is obey because of fear. You cannot love an abuser.

Cole said...


God is Holy and perfect. If He wasn't for His own glory He would sin. God displays His own nature through what He creates.

Part of His nature is His wrath.

I'm not scared of God's wrath.

Stardust said...

cole...there is no god. You do not need to live so fearfully, and so full of self-hate.

Cole said...

God loves me.
I love God and I love my neighbor as myself.

Stardust said...

cole, but you are contradicting said we didn't deserve to be that sounds like self-loathing to me...then you say you love yourself like you love your neighbor...maybe that explains why my christian next door neighbor is so crappy to her neighbors since she loathes herself???

There is no evidence for the existence of any gods or supernatural beings. They only live in the imaginations of human beings. You all say you believe in this god...but not enough to stop trusting science OVER your god beliefs.

Stardust said...

People who give birth to conjoined twins set out immediately to find out how to correct your "god's wrath" and medical teams get together to undo this little joke your god plays on humans out of evil spite...

Of course, we know that there is a malformation while the embryos are developing and it is an accident of boogeyman in the sky playing games.

Stardust said...

And one more thing...your "god loves me", a programmed response. If you are in trouble, and no humans are around for miles and are pretty much screwed because your god will not help you.

I know what you will say next...then you will go to the magic kingdom in the clouds where you can be enslaved to this god forever alongside the likes of Jerry Falwell...and serial killers who "found Jesus" at the last minute...that sounds more like hell to me.

Cole said...


I don't deserve God's love but He loves me anyway.

It's grace.

Cole said...

God disciplines those He loves.

God causes all things to work together for good for those that love Him.

Whether I live or die.

Stardust said...

cole, many christians do not believe the same way you do. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe anyone here is going to heaven because according to the bible the 144,000 have already been chosen and what is being preached about anyone who says the magic words "I believe" will get into heaven is a big lie...or misconeception. The catholics think all protestants are not true christians, Evangelicals think that catholics and all other protestants are not true christians. Presbyterians have their versions, as does all 2,500 sects of xiantiy.

This god of yours never shows himself. How can you be so sure of his existence with the lack of evidence? Because you WANT to believe in the Wizsrd of Oz and Peter Pan...all you have to do is believe...and it will be you, in your own mind. The problem comes in when you all try to impose your fantasies and imaginations on the rest of us who don't need or want it.

Stardust said...

And as for "discipling" those he loves, I know that from my christian years to be yet another "pre-programmed" response that you probably really don't understand. It's just another excuse for the bad stuff that happens to you that you cannot explain, but are made to feel as if you deserve it somehow.

You will be happier if you accept that shit happens and stuff like sickness, deformities, violent forces of nature and other things you cannot control are NOT your fault. You need to think of yourself as a good person...according to your own merits...(unless you are a murderer or a thief or abuser, wife beater, sex offender...then you have a mental/social disorder.)

Cole said...


I'm covered in the righteousness of Christ and am therefore fully pleasing to the Father.

God's grace enables me to make much of Him. Not myself.

As for all the different belief systems that's a really good point.

I think in the end God will be fair. I'll leave that matter in His hands. He's the Judge not me. I'm not God.

Stardust said...

If it makes you feel good and better about yourself and the world to believe that, then it's your right to believe whatever you want.

Tommy said...

Hey Star. I see Cole discovered you. He used to post comments on Debunking Christianity under the name Calvin. Then apparently, after reading John Loftus book, he lost his faith in Christianity, though he still believed in god. I guess he had a relapse!

People with Cole's mentality are like battered wives who blame themselves for the husband getting angry and beating them, and try to console themselves by telling themselves "I know deep down he really loves me and I just have to try to be a better wife." The big difference though is that the husband who beats the wife is a flesh and blood human being, while the god of the Bible is not real.

Cole, the true path to personal salvation is to realize that you are a human being with value and self-worth, and that our actions have consequences in the real world that we live in. Do not harm yourself and do not harm others. That is about the gist of it. No need to factor in an angry sky daddy into the equation at all.

Stardust said...

Do not harm yourself and do not harm others.

Yep tommy, that's what it all boils down to. Nice and simple, and if everyone would just abide by that simple rule the world would be a much, much better place. The next thing would be to share what we have, and everyone help someone else who is in need.

But that is idealistic...not realistic because humans are selfish, and only out for themselves...

even in their own religion and religious thinking. They would not follow a religion if there wasn't something in it for the self.

Cole said...


I tried but I can't explain evil and suffering without Calvinism.

It's either Calvinism or Atheism.

Cole said...

Stardust self-interest isn't the same as selfishness.

Selfishness is seeking your own private pleasure at the expense of someone else.

Cole said...

I'm valuble to God.

Tommy said...

Calvinism or atheism?

Well shit man, that's a no brainer!

Jettison that calvinistic bs Cole and learn to enjoy life. Life is what you make of it, not what some entity in the sky dictates.

Stardust said...

I'm valuble to God.

Try to think for yourself and see just bow valuable you are...and valuable for WHAT? You have convinced yourself that you are valuable to some invisible imaginary entity which only exists inside your own are valuable to YOURSELF.

Stardust said...

Stardust self-interest isn't the same as selfishness. goes hand in hand there, cole. It's all about you. And if you can convince me to believe in your imaginary friend, then that will make it all the more real for Y O U.

Life is what you make of it, not what some entity in the sky dictates.

tommy, that is so true. I know a lot of christians who mope about and waste the one and only life they will ever have.

Krystalline Apostate said...

The reason God does this is because He displays His nature in what He creates.
So your petty little tyrant took it out on a little turtle?!?!?
Gawd's TO'ed, so this thing you worship likes to fuck about a bit w/innocent critters? Cause birth defects? Knock people outta the sky? Biggest damn abortionist EVER?!?!?
Pathetic. Psychotic. If this is love, I'm not wanting in on it.
Your deity needs some serious cosmic thorazine, toot sweet.

Cole said...


I value the infinitely valuable more than I value myself.

Why should I value myself more?

I do think the way you think sometimes though. Really it's just valuing yourself.

But I think it's more than that.

Anyway, I think I've ran this out too far.
Thanks for trying to help me.

Stardust said...

cole, you can't value something that doesn't exist...except in your own imagination, like I said before. It's like saying that an imaginary invisible friend is more valuable than a flesh and blood friend or family member who IS there for you. This imaginary friend fails you time, and time again. But flesh and blood humans who care about you are the ones who you should value and give credit to...and to yourself. Because if you use your own free will and choose to do nothing...nothing happens whether you believe in a god or not.

Cole said...

I think I might become a Deist or something.

I'm scared I'm going to go to hell though.

Stardust said...

cole, isn't going to heaven and kissing the feet of some god alongside Jerry Falwell and Tammy Faye Bakker worse than Hell? LOL!

Hell is a human concept...and there are many, many concepts and imaginations of this fictional hell. Some say Hell is here on Earth. Some denominations don't even believe in Hell and say it's just a separation from their gods. Some god believers say they don't believe in heaven or a hell but believe in a god that has no control over anything. (Deist) To me, it is absurd to think about this grand puppetmaster who is pulling the stings of billions and billions of people past, present and future...and also controlling the weather, birds, animals, sea creatures, insects and everything in the whole entire cosmos. People like to say "god did it" when they have no other explanations or knowledge to provide answers for them. They are quite creative in making up their own answers for the things they do not know.

I went the Deist route for awhile on my road to admitting to myself finally that I didn't believe their is a "great and powerful wizard" who created everything...or controls everything. It's hard to comprehend that we are on our own in the vastness of the universe. We are literally stardust, and will return to being stardust one day. That's pretty cool to know we will still be part of the universe whether we are conscious in it or not.

Tommy said...

Cole, I submit that you are already living in hell, a hell of your own making.

When theists become so extreme in their religious it warps their views of life and their fellow human beings. Non-believers are not other people with whom you disbelieve, they become an enemy to be combatted, a cancerous tumor to be removed.

One can never be happy with such a mindset because the world will bever be what you want it to be. The world will never be 100% Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever.

I know it is hard for your to let go of these feelings and beliefs you have, because you have made such an emotional investment in these beliefs that you almost feel as if it is akin amputating a limb. Rather, think of it as getting rid of a vestigial organ like an appendix. You can live without it. You just need to try.

Examine your life. Ask yourself, what are the problems in my life? What am I missing (a partner, friends, a decent paying job, etc.) and what are the obstacles that prevent me from getting these things? Focus on the things in life that you enjoy. Do you like to fish, go kayaking, ride a bicycle, go bowling?

I am not asking you not to believe in the existence of a god. It is not beliefs that matter to me such much as deeds and character.

Let's compare the Biblical god with the Deist god as expounded upon by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason". The Biblical god is one that says "If you don't believe this and if you don't do that, then you are going to burn in hell for all eternity after you die."

The Deist god would say "I created this universe that you inhabit. It is full of many wonderful things and mysteries to ponder. Use the life I have given you to the fullest to responsibly enjoy this universe I have created."

Now, if there was a god that created this vast universe, not only must it be very intelligent and very wise, it must also be rational. A rational being would be above petty human emotions as anger and jealousy. Of the two possible gods I described above, which strikes you as the more rational and more probable?

Good luck in your journey.

Cole said...

Thanks Tommy!

tina said...

Amazing conversation! Thanks you guys! I felt like I was right there in a room listening to this, like a mouse in a corner.

Stardust said...

tina - yes, this was a good conversation. Cole seems like a very nice guy, and looking at his photo on his blog, he looks like a genuinely nice fellow. Whatever his beliefs, I respect someone who will listen and can exchange ideas and viewpoints without getting insulting about it.
I have changed a lot since I first started blogging and am learning to listen and try to discuss in a civil manner and it usually works very well most of the time. Then there are those who drive-by proseltyze and their ears are shut and they just want to preach what they have been programmed to preach, pass judgement and not question themselves at all. This conversation went better than I expected in the beginning.