Thursday, May 01, 2008

Willfully ignorant

Recently, I had a visit by a 17-year-old creationist high-school junior (she goes to a fundie school, of course and plans to go to fundie college) who came by my blog to tell me that I was “ridiculous” in my critique about the IDiotic film, Expelled. After 150 comments, and several educated atheists trying to convince Lauren to round up some real books on evolution, pointed her to some excellent evolution resources, and after we had asked Lauren some very direct questions that she was not able to answer, Lauren said she was far too busy to “waste time” responding to anything we asked her. (Even though she wasn’t too busy to keep coming back to tell us she loves her god and to tell us we will find out for ourselves one day and it will be too late, yadda, yadda, yadda.) The reality is, Lauren has decided to remain willfully ignorant. This is quite sad, and it happens to millions of fundie kids.

Lauren feels that the Expelled film is brilliant. (Even saw it a second time with her whole fundie school and CLAPPED at the end of it...aye carumba!) :roll: Lauren believes in Intelligent Design. She wants it taught side by side (or maybe in place of) with evolution. So, since Lauren and other IDers want creationism taught side by side with science, then I pointed out that it should be held to the same standards as science. I asked Lauren repeatedly these following questions that Jason poses:

What are ID’s scientific predictions?

What are its unifying principles?

What experiments have been done to support your ID theory? WITHOUT THE MYTHOLOGY BOOK.

I must have asked her a dozen times at my blog, and at her’s. No answer, of course.

I have asked these questions of several IDers in the past several days, and they evade the question, ignore it or just flat out get frustrated and pull out the “you’re persecuting me” card.

Try it yourself. In debates with fundies, ask them these three simple questions and see them get all pissy, frustrated, and even outright angry. They all end up leaving, choosing to remain willfully ignorant.

If people have to have a sky daddy belief, at least let it be Catholic, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc. where people actually accept and understand real science and evolution.


tina FCD said...

Whoa! That's a lot of comments, even if it was mostly you two. :)
I read the whole darned thing and kept shaking my head. But I also hope that fundies keep coming because I sure learned a lot from the atheists that commented! Thanks!

Jason H. Bowden said...

ID is a Trojan horse for creationism, and everyone knows it.

I read on LGF that Stein recently remarked "Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people."

Sure, Ben. Nobel Prize winners are all mass murderers. And gentle jihadists merely want to have peaceful thoughts about the sand. Rrrrright.

Poodles said...

It truly is a form of child abuse.

Stardust said...

jason, Ben Stein should get the Idiot of the Year Award. I never realized what a moron he is till this crappy Expelled movie.

Poodles, yes, child abuse is right..intellectual child abuse. I can't believe Lauren's own mother took her to this film and clapped along with her daughter.

Stardust said...

tina, and the comments keep growing there! LOL! I haven't had a comment thread go on for so long in ages! I could have told her to get lost after her first comment, but thought maybe we could spark some kind of thinking process in the poor girl, since she doesn't seem to be getting that from her family.

I am hoping that even though we don't see it now that somewhere in the future something we have told her here might click and a light will go on inside of her little brain.

Bobbb - Citizen of Earth said...

Cool stuff

I'm not gonna go into details here and now - but ID is bunk and it's ALARMING how many people in this country believe that half baked psudo-science crap.

Now my beliefs are my own - and they are founded in science, and in truth.

However, I don't think this is a theistic debate - it a biblical one.

I think Athiests and believers should be able to agree that evolution is real, it is elegant and beautiful.

From WMAP to the genes I just saw passed down to my grandson...

Damn! what a ride!

Stardust said...

Hey everybody, Lauren has now done what most fundies predictably do...and LIED..gasp and shock...(not).

Looks like Lauren has pulled out the persecution card, not to mention writing a bunch of lies on her blog claiming she was discriminated against because of her age. Give me a break!

I have been having a heated conversation with a few “atheists” over at another blog. It started probably about two or so weeks ago. Now, the post has more than 130 comments. I presented my points and asked for a response that would answer the questions I had asked. When the response came, it was not an answer, but it was an ad hominem attack on me and a regurgitation of Richard Dawkins’ points on the documentary Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. The ad hominem attack was carried out because I am “only a 17-year-old girl.” They thought that since I was much younger than they were, they could criticize me and tell me I’m wrong just because of my age. Well, this is my response to this illogical fallacy (this comes from a great literary play).

“But if I am young, and right, what does my age matter?” - Antigone

Oh boo fucking hoo! Can't answer the questions so turn on the waa waa poor me tears, and it's not just teenage fundies that do this, adults fundies do this too. It's a rather pathetic distraction when they cannot provide evidence for their claims.

Lauren continues" This is a great quote from a great play. Even though this play is not talking about what I’m going through exactly, it does illustrate a great point: as long as a person is intelligent and correct, it does not matter how old they are. Now, to all those who may be looking at this post right now who were in on the evolution discussion (especially a certain one named Stardust), remember this: never again use an ad hominem attack on someone during a debate, especially when the person obviously knows what they are talking about, no matter how old they are. Also, do not accuse someone of doing something when you go ahead and do it yourself. I was talked down to after I deleted a few uneccessary comments off my blog. Then, I come to find out that a certain person named Bruce left a comment on the blog the debate was on. Apparently, the author of this blog deleted Bruce’s comments after telling me not to delete her own comments on my blog.

I guess outright lying is so part of Christianity that they can't tell the difference anymore or don't think it's wrong...I don't know! We didn’t criticize her for her age, but because of her refusal to answer questions asked of her. And she leaves out the part that Bruce was a drive-by troll who happen to slip in through the crack in the door when I allowed anonymous comments for a couple of hours in case a friend wanted to jump in on the discussion. I now have my moderation back on again.
Bruce had nothing to add to the discussion, no answers, just "don't pick on a poor little girl"...never mind that she came by here and called me ridiculous because I think Ben Stein's movie is asinine.

My guess is that Lauren's blog post is in retaliation because I wrote a blog about her willful ignorance.

Stardust said...

Oh, and if you want to read her "poor me" blog post yourself, here it is. But if you leave a comment she may not be able to deal with it, even if you are polite, and delete you if she is frustrated that she cannot answer.

CyberKitten said...

It's impressive that you spent so much time attempting to reason against someone's belief. I actually think that such things are pretty much a waste of time - a bit like trying to thred a needle with boxing gloves on.

Generally speaking (in my experience) beliefs never respond to reasoned argument because they are not based on reason - but on emotion. Dissecting the argument will only force the other person - when they inevitably reach a point where their 'argument' begins to fail - to either respond by running away or start slinging around personal attacks.

Arguing with theists often feels like (to me at least) arguing with crazy people in a foreign language - which remarkedly sounds a *lot* like English [grin]. It can be fun for a little while - at least as long as you have the forlorn hope of getting through to them with reason and objective reality - but ultimately its a complete waste of time.

Joe said...

It took me a while but I figured out you can't tell people truth that they don't want to hear. Wives, bosses, Christians, its all the same. Fingers in ears and "I don't want to hear it"

Stardust said...

cyberkitten and joe, I know you are both right. Most fundies we encounter are dead set, brainwashed and immovable. However, my hope is that I plant little seeds of doubt (or little seeds of reason) which hopefully one day will start growing in someone's mind as it did me. Maybe we said some things that Lauren and other fundies never thought about before, and it makes them afraid, but they will remember snippets of this and that of what is told to them...I hope. ;)

I don't have the time to enter these discussions most of the time, but when they are so young as Lauren, someone has to offer a counterpoint and tell her that there are many people who do not agree with her.

If she wrote a blog post about all this, it has to be going through her mind a lot and so I don't think my time was fully wasted. :)

Stardust said...

Quote from Lauren's site...

. I go to the best school ever with the teachers are the best ever. The teachers are the sweetest teachers in the whole world. They actually care about our learning and our future.

I seriously doubt that. Lauren goes to a school that is "comfortable" for her and her very small worldview. She cares about "sweet" teachers instead of ones who will challenge her and tell her the truth about things. She goes to a school where the teachers will only reinforce her already established beliefs, and not challenge her to think outside the box. She may as well not bother going to school at all and just stay at home watching "amazing" Ben Stein films.

Stardust said...

On Rotten Expelled got a mere 9% rotten!

"Expelled is a classic bait-and-switch, presenting itself as a plea for freedom in the scientific marketplace of ideas, while actually delivering a grossly unfair, contradictory, and ultimately repugnant attack on Darwinists."

Embracing evolutionary theory will turn you into a close-minded, God-denying Nazi -- that's the upshot of this ludicrous propaganda piece.

Surely the film's greatest offense is the utter shamelessness with which it exploits the Holocaust.

It shows us bogus security files, as if some cabal is spying on everyone. It shirks the facts. And it madly edits images to equate Darwin with Hitler, and Ben Stein with -- yes -- Ronald Reagan. Typical of all propaganda, it also distorts language.

Either the filmmakers suckered these [pro-Darwinist] participants under false pretenses, or the evolutionists are more open to debate than Stein suggests.

Stardust said...

Here is a doozie....Lauren is banning me from her blog because she doesn't want to hear the truth...proving cyberkitten right, it's a total waste of time dealing with fundies.

Here is her last post to me...

Stardust, quit commenting on my blog. I have had enough of you.

“always accept the possibility that you could be wrong”
Why are you telling me to do things that you have not done? You do not accept this so why should I? I know that I am right and that is why I do not have to question anything.

“Embracing evolutionary theory will turn you into a close-minded, God-denying Nazi — that’s the upshot of this ludicrous propaganda piece.”
Again, this is NOT TRUE!!!!! All the movie said was that Hitler’s quotes and beliefs RESEMBLED Darwin’s beliefs and theories. It did not say that Darwin was the cause of Nazism; it just said it RESEMBLED it. Again, if you had actually seen the movie, you would have understood this point.

Now, I don’t want you posting on this blog anymore. I will start deleting your posts because I am done. I am working on a thesis right now and I don’t have the time to keep restating things. That’s the problem with atheists: they only have a few arguments that make sense; the rest are foolish, so they only rely on those few arguments and no others because they know the others don’t make sense.

Also, if you would have seen the movie, Richard Dawkins (a strong atheist) even admitted that there is a chance of a designer. Again, you should have watched the movie to get the full understanding before blinding trying to support things that others say.

I don’t want to hear from you again, Stardust, and this is not because I don’t want to hear what you say, but it is because #1: I don’t have the time, and #2: it is getting us nowhere to keep arguing our own points without agreeing on something. If you will not accept anything I say, it is your fault not mine, so please leave my blog, and go off into your godless, empty, dank, dark world where you BELIEVE (yes, you do have beliefs) you will turn into nothing when you die. At least I have assurance and a hope of the life to come.

One last time, Stardust, do not come back to my blog again. Just leave me and others who are correct alone. We have all had enough.

So...Lauren is right...stomps her foot and so there! She calls the atheist foolish when she is the one who believes in a magic invisible genie and some afterlife that has never been proven. She is living for death.

I know you will be back here to read, Lauren. All we can be certain of is the here and now. There are no billion souls floating around in another realm, and in the end you will disappear and only your memory will exist. You were nothing before you were born, and in the end we return to ...stardust. But in the end we can only hope we have led a good life, good enough to be remembered fondly but the friends and loved ones who continue to live.

Stardust said...

I think this might just be our new fundie quote of the year!

Lauren says: "I know that I am right and that is why I do not have to question anything.'

Funny if it wasn't so sad.

tina FCD said...

"One last time, Stardust, do not come back to my blog again. Just leave me and others who are correct alone. We have all had enough."

Correct? They've all had enough?
I bet!

Stardust said...

tina, and funny thing the way she uses "we have all had enough" when there was just her. That is the Borg mentality I often refer to. Fundies think as a collective.

CyberKitten said...

stardust said: Lauren is banning me from her blog because she doesn't want to hear the truth...proving cyberkitten right, it's a total waste of time dealing with fundies.

It's the usual response. First they are happy to talk to you because they think they can convert you... then they get annoyed that you argue back.... then they dig their heels in when you ask them searching questions... then they get *really* angry & refuse to have anything to do with you!

But you never know..... you *may* have planted a seed... possibly....

Stardust said...

cyberkitten, I certainly hope so,for her sake and her children's if she ever has any.

ex patriot70 said...

that simple minded 17 year old so wrapped up with her mythology book and the garbage that is pounded into her head by people who really want nothing more than to control her mind and body, poor her if she should ever think for herself.

Stardust said...

ex patriot, now she got a comment from her Uncle Rocco in another of her posts telling her "may God always be with you". It's hard for the young to break away when a whole family is fighting hard to keep her from thinking for herself.

Poodles said...

I hope you did plant a seed.

I agree that it is probably hopeless. She will surround herself with like minded people and not have to hear any differing opinions.

I think she came here looking to convert, thinking she could "do god's work" and make you see the light. She probably had convinced one of her friends to convert to her ways and then she felt high on that "feeling" and felt she could take on an atheist. She then realized she was in over her head when it comes to education including in religion. She learned she doesn't have the education to back her thoughts and philosophies so she did what others here are saying she did... "poor me, I am being picked on." Forgetting that SHE CAME HERE FIRST.

Sorry you couldn't keep up with the truly educated Lauren. Maybe someday you will understand why you were wrong.

Martin Gamble said...

Come now, everybody, let's be nice..

Stardust said...

Martin, we are nice. Lauren came here, insulted me in another post by calling me ridiculous, then offered some other snotty comments and never answered our questions, saying she is going to believe what she wants to believe, kept coming back for more, and still not answering our questions. Never offering support for the things she was saying.

Bringing up the point of how too many people choose to remain willfully ignorant doesn't mean we are not nice. If by "being nice" you mean "be silent" and allow someone to say whatever they want on my blog without dispute then that is not going to happen. By "let's be nice" is meaning no debate...let's be androids. If you are an atheist and saying "let's be nice" then you are not helping by having a complacent attitude by being silent and allowing the ignorant to not hear any opposing viewpoints and evidence.

Martin Gamble said...

Sorry, I'm not trying to lecture anyone. I'm a Christian, but I'm interested in every point of view. That's why I read these blogs!
I just thought that a few of the comments had gone too far. IMHO.
P.S. I love your astronomy posts. I love them!

Stardust said...

Thanks for the compliment Martin. Astronomy is very interesting to me.

I don't think the comments have gone too far, people get frustrated when someone comes here "telling" us things and then has no support to back them up and won't answer. It's also very sad that a girl her age thinks she doesn't have to question anything. Her parents are doing her a disservice by promoting this idea that you simply have to believe without question.

Stardust said...

Well, Lauren chose to remain willfully ignorant. She deleted the post at her blog that had nearly 60 comments from atheists and Christians alike who were trying to talk sense into her about evolution and telling her that Ben Stein's movie was a bunch of bunk. She only responded with "I'm so busy working on my thesis" (at her teeny tiny "Classic Christian school)and yet she had time to go to school parties, post pictures of it and write a long post about it. We just weren't talking about something she wanted to discuss anymore because Lauren had no answers and didn't want to admit it. So, she decided to "delete" reality, and chose to stay in her safe little delusional world. Hopefully some of what I and others have written there will stick in her brain and she will remember something of it later when she matures.

Since she grew frustrated and deleted the whole post, that shows we were making her uncomfortable and made her start to question and Lawd knows fundies can't have any thinking going on!

Stardust said...

Now she has deleted her whole blog or made it inaccessible to the general blogosphere. Guess she just didn't want to even get involved in what she has started. She just wanted to come here and preach, but then discovered not even her god could help her stand up and defend her position. Of course, we know why. God does not exist. ;)

Stardust said...

Now her blog is back, but the post is still gone. Well, if you can't answer the questions, then just erase that it was ever being discussed. That's the fundie way to deal with reality. Just deny it. Erase the evidence. That's the way to keep yourself brainwashed. Just stay in your tiny close-minded world, and block outsiders from getting in.

Stardust said...

Here’s where Lauren is planning to go to college. She apparently chose one to keep her forever and soundly brainwashed. No wonder she deleted the post when we tried to pry her mind open.

Cedarville University: “Home to 3,000 Christian students, Cedarville is an accredited, Christ-centered, Baptist university of arts, sciences, professional, and graduate programs. Cedarville is located in southwestern Ohio on a beautiful 400-acre campus.”

Cedarville University is a Christ-centered learning community equipping students for lifelong leadership and service through an education marked by excellence and grounded in biblical truth

To achieve its purpose, the University seeks to accomplish the following objectives:

1. To undergird the student in the fundamentals of the Christian faith and to stimulate each student to evaluate knowledge in the light of scriptural truth.

2. To encourage growth in Christian character in each student and to help the student accept responsibility for faithful Christian service.

3. To increase each student’s awareness of the world of ideas and events which are influencing our contemporary culture and to prepare each student to participate knowledgeably in our society.

[I suppose through continued brainwashing about how very bad and immoral anyone else is but their own little flock]

4. To enable each student to develop sound critical and analytical reasoning.

[Yeah, right…just like we have seen from so many fundies already :roll: ]

5. To provide sufficient opportunities for each student to practice the skills of communication.

[Like using the delete key and plugging their ears when they hear something they don’t agree with.]

6. To offer opportunities for academic specialization and preparation for graduate study and to assist each student in selecting and preparing for a vocation.

[Vocation? Like working as a pastor for a fundie church, missionary to mess up other cultures, waitress, clerk at McDonalds?]

7. To foster each student’s appreciation of and participation in wholesome avocational and cultural activities.

[By cultural activities means to try to convert other cultures to accept your own]

* Unwavering commitment to the inerrancy and authority of Scripture
* Creationist approach to scientific research and study
* Required Bible minor a part of all academic programs
* Daily chapels with relevant biblical teaching and authentic praise
* Discipleship groups that provide opportunities for Bible study, mentoring, accountability, prayer, and open discussion
* Missions and study abroad opportunities that reach nearly every corner of the world

Christian professors who challenge students to think biblically in every subject area

[Well this last one tells us everything we need to know…Lauren will continue her close-minded “education” and waste a bunch of money for absolutely nothing]

And get a load of their doctrinal statement” “It’s not a university, it’s a version of Jeebus Camp for older kids.

Poodles said...

How does a school like that become accredited?

Stardust said...

How does a school like that become accredited?

I am baffled. Apparently if they are meeting minimum state standards for subject matter, then they can get accredited no matter what religious bullcrap spin they want to put on it. As long as they present science and mandated requirements, then it doesn't matter if they tell the students that what is being presented is not true and then teach their religious perspectives. It's pathetic.

However, it matters a lot in the business world. Employers will see the university a person comes from and KNOW which school teaches bullcrap and what school provides a quality education. These students are going to have a hard time competing unless they work specifically for Xian companies or become pastors or missionaries, which it appears that is encouraged...more little soldiers for Jeebus.